Peter Boyles Show - Tuesday, March 16, 1999
Posted by Panico on Mar-16-99 at 09:16 AM (EST)
PB: She and I have a mutual friend, Judy Muller, say good morning to Lisa Stalley (?) You and I were talking about little girl pageants. You've focused on this one little girl, Thumper Gosney. I took that one picture of her and I covered it up from the neck down and I took it around to a number of women I work with here and said "Guess how old she is" and they were guessing 18, 19, 20. She's the most successful little girl on the circuit now, right?
Lisa: The pageants plumeted after JonBenet died. But now Thumper has done very well. I have to say that I disagree with most of the talk about children and pageants. Take JonBenet, they weren't a big part of her life.
PB: Where did you get that?
Lisa: From my research. There's lots of little local pageants that aren't very important.,
PB: Are you saying if they only compete in the little pageants, it doesn't matter? I gotta tell you I'm a buff around the Ramsey case.
Lisa: didn't get it all---trying to tell PB it's no big deal
PB: Unless you're playing in the Superbowl you're not really a ball player?
Lisa: The pageant world is a sorority. There's a lot of mis conceptions. They all know each other--they travel together--they eat together--it's like this big loving family. Yes there's competition but that's only a small part of it. I think Patsy wanted to join this world. When JB did Sunburst, she did very badly. Her clothes actually hurt JB in the pageants.
PB: That's really interesting, because there's a women who was at one time a choreographer, Miss Kit, that when she saw the first of a videos, and the sexualization, she said to Larry Schiller, "I never taught her those routines"
Lisa: She could have copied some of the little girls.
PB: Wait a minute---you mean the sexual thrusts are part of that? I ain't buying it, Peter
Lisa: How can I explain to you that there's a whole world of pageants for little girls who have really been damaged by this publicity.
PB: But I've seen the videos
Lisa: You can't tell by the videos. Children have been judged by outside things Only families go to the pageants.
PB: You honest to God don't think that making 8 year old Thumper look like.... who taught them that?
Lisa: Peter, it's politically incorrect, but it's not sinister. It's not OK to care about charm and beauty?
PB: You're telling me about a little 4 year old girl that said "Mama I want to go to a pageant?"
2 . "More"
Posted by Panico on Mar-16-99 at 09:26 AM (EST)
(Lisa was trying to tell Peter that the little local pageants aren't a big deal until you get into the big southern ones--and that she felt that JonBenet wasn't nearly good enough for them...she really talks fast)
PB: Good guest on the line---she got involved as a journalist in the pageant scene--here's a fax: Out of curiousity I looked up Thumper Gosney---I was quite surprised she was that young. When one looks like an adult woman, does that not encourage pedophiles? Thumper has her own own website. Thumper is with the '98 royalty" Your thoughts Lisa
Lisa: Hair and makeup are an equalizer. The prettiest kids don't win the pageants. It's the best disciplined.
PB: I've had women sit here in the studio who are involved with the pageants that talked about duct taping etc---are you denying that happened?
Lisa: I never saw that happen. Who knows what happened in the Ramsey family? I can tell you that pageant children were loved by their parents.
PB: Are you familiar with the magazine Babette?
PB: It's what you would call a vanity magazine---and JonBenet's parents bought the cover for JonBenet. I gotta tell you, my reaction to Babette magazine---the parents bought them, the other buyers were Chester the Molesters and they took off for the bathroom with it. I'm being terribly blunt, but that's the way it is.
Lisa; The only reason I could get in was because I had written about pageants before. I wrote about the hair etc., this time I wrote about the children. These are well to do working familoes/ They can't afford to send their kids to finishing school so they send them to pageants...
(Good grief---this lady is delusional)
4 . "Oh Dang it----"
Posted by Panico on Mar-16-99 at 09:35 AM (EST)
Carol just did her first spot with this new stuff on Fox at 7:05 and I missed it. Maw posted the URL for that on the "Heads Up For Fox" thread.
Lisa: If Patsy was really a stage mother, she would have taken her to Hollywood.
PB: But Patsy was trying to get her into commercials when she was killed.
Lisa: Well, this kid was late, they usually start them when they're 3 or 4
PB: You're saying 5 is late?
Lisa: Think about a weekend slumber party where the kids and parents are there playing together in the pool etc. Most of these families truly love their kids. No one was more shocked that the pageant people. The second reaction was to find themselves insulted and hounded by the press.
PB: Did any of them think that possibly what the little girl was involved in got her killed?
Lisa: Absolutely not.
PB: But she performed a number of times
Lisa: No only a couple of times
PB: That's what John tried to portray--and it's nonsense
Lisa: Let's say that in the worst of them, it's isolated
PB: Wait a minute---these people were prominent people in Boulder Are you saying if these people had been around more pageant people that this wouldn't have happened?
Lisa: Yes---that if they hung out with all these pageant moms---they're wonderful. If the child doesn't like doing this, they lose. It's too expensive to keep going back if your child loses. Your'e doing it because the kid loves the attention and they want to do it. If they're unhappy they don't come back.
6 . "More"
Posted by Panico on Mar-16-99 at 09:45 AM (EST)
(I"m so torn----I'm just dying to get at the URL to see what Carol had to say...and I have to make myself wait)
PB: Carol McKinley will be on right after the 8:00 news with some breaking news (OH GOODY!)
Caller: I would like to say I think you went for the story and got sucked in. I cannot imagine children at 3 and 4 going to their parents and saying "This is what we want to do" This is not like a slumber party.
Lisa: Let me say this about the prizes--there are so many prizes---every child on stage leaves with some kind of a prize.
PB: How expensive is it?
Lisa: Very expensive---it costs a lot. They say this is a billion dollar industry but it isn't. Most costumes are re-cycled. Most mothers do make up or something----
PB: Don't they hire others to do this?
Lisa: Yes, but most of it is done within the families. Thumper's mother does coaching.
Caller: I came from Wisconsin---I saw the first one 2 years before JonBenet's death. I found something extraordinary----almost every one of these children were almost lost at birth or something--quite poignant--about all of them. In this world there is no prejudice about skin color (tells story about a dark child that had been adopted by a white family and excelled in pageantry)
Lisa: I don't think I can ever convince everyone---believe me, when you spend a lot of time with people, you see the cracks. I called a lot of people to get negative quotes--like Geraldo etc. I was appalled at how many had been mis-quoted. You find less abuse in the pageant world than you do elsewhere because of the close bonding you find in the pageant world. These kids get sworn at---they have no idea what they've done wrong.
7 . "More"
Posted by Panico on Mar-16-99 at 09:59 AM (EST)
Caller: I've been listening to the show and I think you guest is totally out of her mind. These beauty contests are bogus--they're expensive.......
PB: If a little boy who plays little league is brutally murdered, people don't attack a family.
Lisa: That's because they know about little league. If all you know about football is filtered through the murder (talking about OJ)
Another caller: I can see why the beauty pageant let her in--they knew what she was going to write about. It's like Bill Clinton telling us he didn't have sex with Monica.
Lisa: This is an unsolved murder and that's why they're looking at the pageants
PB: The interesting thing is that when you bring it--the pageant people said they ahrdly knew Patsy.
Lisa: The local people knew Patsy---but not the people in the pageant circuit
PB: It's what they're saying to you----"No we hardly knew her"
Lisa: Don't you see what has happened? I've spent a huge amount of time--I grill these people. The first story I did was very tough. This time, I wanted to see the relationships between people and their children.
PB: Would you put your daughter in a pageant?
Lisa: Is she wanted to--sure.
PB: I thought you said they all wanted to be in.
12 . "More"
Posted by Panico on Mar-16-99 at 10:17 AM (EST)
Carol telling that it will probably be about a month before GJ finishes with this that they're taking a couple of days off for Easter (25-30)
Carol: Here's the clincher on the DNA--Kane is saying there's nothing significant there--let's look at what is significant here. A big thing here is that the underwear JonBenet was wearing was too big for her. The DNA in her underwear was very very weak--the blood is strong and it is JonBenet's... In other words, this DNA is inconclusive. At this point, it's a bad sign because nobody likes to see anything that doesn't have a match to it ... The other thing is the DNA under her fingernails...the fact that there's DNA that doesn't match anyone just means that it's too contaminated. The lab found a sliver of metal under the fingernails---it could have come from the clippers the coroner used, it could have come from anything. At this point, we're back to --a month.
PB: A number of sources tell me that we'll see one indictment of a Ramsey.
Carol: I don't think people know that for sure Peter, do you? The note was spread across the stairs that morning and I've had cops tell me that no way could someone step around it...
PB: I've been told by a source close to the investigation that the Ramseys will not be called before the GJ---which is even more damning than if they were called.
Carol: In Atlanta, there are trees around her grave, there are angels...
PB: Did someone steal those angels?
Carol: Yes--and Patsy is really upset about that. They have a surveillance camera set up now. And it's not gonna get any better if there's a trial.
PB: I think you're the one that broke the story about the tree being stripped of the angels--and I think you're right--it's turning into a James Dean type thing
Carol: What do you think of the underwear being too big?
PB: They're too big---
Carol: That it's part of what happened that night?
PB: I wonder what Patsy would say about that?
Carol: Believe me, they've known about his for a long time. Every time we hear about his unexplained DNA people start panicing---and they're hung up on this because of what that means to a trial
PB: I think when GJ does finally convene, there will be a gathering of DAs and it will be hosted by Alex Hunter and Bill Ritter---the GJ will make the presentation and somebody has to make the decision.....
Carol: Alex all along has deferred to other people before he gives his own opinion. There are plenty of people out there would like to get in front of the GJ ... Lou Smit etc.
PB: And Pam Paugh---
Carol: From what I understand they interviewed some lay people that knew Ramseys when they were in Atlanta
Someone else in studio: How much bigger was the underwear?
Carol: They were still little girl, just a couple of sizes too big. You might say she wore pull ups a lot and they bought panties that would go over them.