Newseum Transcript 1: Ramseys re. the Media by Dunvegan
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Newseum Transcript 1: Ramseys re. the Media, Dunvegan, 14:11:04, 3/24/2001
Newseum Transcript (1 of 2), Dunvegan, 14:12:50, 3/24/2001, (#1)
"Newseum Transcript 1: Ramseys re. the Media"
Posted by Dunvegan on 14:11:04 3/24/2001
I'll post this in two parts, of which this is the first...it's a long interview,
and my fingers need a rest.
When the Ramseys did the Newseum webcast interview on
10/12/2000...I was at work and had a hard time listening to the entire
interview (I have a hard time listening to Patsy's and John's voices
ANYTIME, but that's a separate issue.)
However, I took down the address at the Newseum website where they
said one could write for a cassette tape of the program.
A couple of weeks ago the free tape of the show arrived...but I put it
in a cubby of my desk, to listen to later.
However, I remembered that John reacted during this interview, with
very scathing language in his assessment of the tabloids...so, since the
"recent developments in the media," I thought it might be worth
transcribing so we could all take a look.
Since Newseum is a non-profit and educational entity...and they will
gladly send anyone a free tape of any broadcast, I hope that by
acknowledging them, and quoting very carefully, this is not
infringement.
Again...it's quite long, so I'll post the first half now, and take a
break...posting the rest later tonight...or tomorrow morning.
===============================================================
1. "Newseum Transcript (1 of 2)"
Posted by Dunvegan on 14:12:50 3/24/2001
From the Newseum interview "Inside Media: Coverage and
Controversies with the Ramseys", of October 12th, 2000.
http://www.newseum.org/
The moderators: Blake Morrison and Eric Newton.
(Here was a short preamble...introducing the Ramseys to the
audience.)
MODERATOR: John, why did decide to come and talk to the class
today?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well...when something like this happens in your life,
um...it causes you to really examine...uh, life. And, uh there's certainly
a strong feeling on Patsy's and my part, that we want something good
to come out of...this.
Um...JonBenet was a beautiful child, uh...we loved her dearly...and,
there's certainly a side of us that is grateful that the country...uh, took
note of that. There are 800 children murdered in this country every
year. And, for some reason, uh...this caught the world's attention.
And, uh...we did a lot of thinking about...well...'cause we were litterally
under siege. We'd been, you know: accused, tried, and convicted in
the media, of murdering our daughter. And, uh...we really had two
choices. One was to try to make a difference, we saw a lot of wrongs
in our system...or, just...crawl in a hole and shut the world out.
Well, we decided, well...for JonBenet's sake, for the sake of our
children, and their children, we gotta try to make a difference.
And, um...how do we make a difference? Um..and this was an
opportunity to, we thought, to talk to young people who are gonna be
in the profession; the media profession...um, let them understand from
our perspective: on the receiving end...the good and the bad we saw.
A lot of bad...but we did see some good.
Uh, so perhaps when they go out in the world, and um...and exercize
their profession, they'll...um...have a litlle different
perspective....perhaps a little more real perspective with what they're
dealing with. Cause they're dealing with real people.
MODERATOR: Patsy: As a former journalism student, yourself, what
should the students here look for...uh, today...that they might not be
able to get just sitting in the classroom...listening to me talk?
PATSY RAMSEY: I would hope that they would come away with the
understanding that...we are real people. You know, I think a lot of time
when the news, um...coverage, you know, hits us everyday, and
everyday, and everyday...it's always "the other guy"...you know: this is
never going to happen to me...this is somebody far, far away. We've
been fictionalized as people that we're not...so, I want them to
understand that in the years to come, when you are reporting about
individuals that they are people. They are human beings. They have
feelings, theys have, you know, rights to privacy...and just because
you are a journalist, does not give you carte blanche to, you know,
drag them through the mud, basically.
MODERATOR: Well, let's get our students down to the microphones...so
that they can start asking their questions, and, while you're coming
down, I've got another one for John.
You talk in your book about the, um..."sides of the media"...the good
side, the bad side, and, clearly, you feel -
JOHN RAMSEY: - We've seen both -
MODERATOR: -You've spent a lot of side on the "bad side"-
JOHN RAMSEY: - We did -
MODERATOR: Well, what are some examples of things that happened to
you…something that happens to you when you are on the "good side",
and something that happens when you are on the "bad side"?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well…in our case we certainly felt, uh…we were…we
were…um…devastated by the loss of our child. Uh…and having gone
through this twice, myself…and Patsy (we lost our older daughter) uh,
you pretty much just want to shut the world out…yet, the world
-through the media- was, uh…intruding our space…(Note: word here is
slurred: could be "wildly"…or could be "violence") wildly, from our
perspective. And, um…we just felt…violated…that…we didn't want our
picture taken, we didn't want that, uh…you know, that attention.
And, um, in the beginning…uh, I think we saw most of the "bad
side"…uh, we saw the tabloid…uh, uh…side of the media. The way the
tabloid works is that they have…uh, they put out a call for pictures,
and a picture is very important to a tabloid…then they can write a
story around it.
So, if the picture is "unusual" they can make a very "unusual" story
around it. And there's a lot of freelance photographers that that's how
they make a living, they get a picture, and if it's a good one, they can
sell it, make several thousand dollars, and they sell it to the tabloids.
We saw that side of the media; it's very intrusive. Uh, uh…telephoto
lenses aimed in our window, uh…the gravesite…uh…JonBenet's
gravesite…uh, we found a hidden camera there…eventually, after we
saw the picture of my older son at the cemetery in one of the tabloid
pictures, uh - newspapers.
And, a friend of ours, came up with an analogy that I thought was
perfect: he said it was like you're the red fox, and you're being pursued
by the dogs, in an English hunt…and the dogs are the tabloid…uh,
media. And the more proper hunters, on the horseback, are the
mainstream media.
And, while the tabloid media is churning up all the innuendos, and uh,
the uh, accusations…sadly, what's happened, to a large degree, is that
the mainstream media is capitalizing on that, and…uh, in some cases,
reporting it as fact.
MODERATOR: So, working almost like a team, is what you're saying,
rather than two different -
JOHN RAMSEY: - Yeah, yeah…from our perspective, we felt like "the
poor little fox ". We had to, uh…had to plan where we, uh…where we
could find our points of refuge.
MODERATOR: Well, we'll get back to this…but, let's see what our
students have to ask today, and we'll go to them.
And, you can…don't be shy…come down and line up, so that we can go
from one to the other. Uh…you're on "Inside Media"; please tell us who
you are, and ask your question.
STUDENT QUESTIONER #1: My name is Ryan (redacted), and I'm a
student at the University of Maryland, and I'd just like to express
gratitude again for giving us his experience: thanks a lot. And, my
question would be this: you've already discussed the intrusiveness of
the tabloids in their coverage…but, which news organizations would you
have found to be the most fair and professional, in their coverage of
the investigation of your daughter's death?
JOHN RAMSEY: That's…uh, a good question. Heh, heh…uh…I think
they…I can't point to one that I feel has been…uh, completely…uh,
accurate and completely fair, and completely correct. I think they all
erred…uh, (sigh). The, uh…you know, we developed a…uh…I'd call it a
hatred for the media, based on our experience at the beginning. And
we…and as we…overtime begin to meet, what I call the "legitimate
journalists" and, uh…people that are…uh, at the top of the profession,
we begin to realize, "Well, these people are decent people. They're
smart, they're trying to do a good job. Um, and yet we've been so
biased by the "dark side" of the media.
Uh, and so it was hard for us to sort out who's the good guy and who's
the bad guy…and a lot of…we shut out a lot of it, because we just
couldn't, uh…couldn't deal with it. It was hurtful, it would make us
angry when things were reported that weren't true…um, and so, the
solution for us was just to shut it out.
We took television out of our home a couple years ago…uh, because
we didn't want our son to, uh…stumble across Geraldo trying us on
television, or something like that…and that was the only way we could
be assured that…uh…that wouldn't happen. Uh, so we shut a lot of it
out. To some degree, we don't know…because we haven't…we don't
follow it. We don't, uh…read all the stories.
But, uh…(pause)…the, um…I've told by…um, friends of ours who did
follow it, um, that the Washington Post did a pretty good job of
accuracy, and staying out of the mud. But that's second-hand
information. Uh, 'cause I didn't…I didn't follow it.
MODERATOR: Would you -
PATSY RAMSEY: -Follow up on that…and, be sure to check it
out…cause you can't just take his words for it (!) (Laughter from
audience, moderators, John.) That's the best…ha, ha! -
MODERATOR: - Well, Patsy, can I ask you about that, because, in
retrospect John's spoke about how you folks basically went into
seclusion from the media, or tried to, as best you could. Do you think
there's anything that either of you could have done differently that
might have helped the media portray you in a more fair, accurate,
complete way?
PATSY RAMSEY: You know, we had just lost our child…we weren't
concerned with helping portray anything. Um, I get criticized for not
having…we both do…for not having "acted right." You know…I (sigh) I
spent weeks and weeks and weeks in bed. Immobile. You know: crying.
So…you know…no, we weren't out there giving a response…because we
were, you know…back there crying our eyes out. So, um…I don't feel
obligated, nor did I then, to have to provide information about…you
know…to try to get people to…to paint a picture of myself…or
something -
JOHN RAMSEY: - You know, people ask us: "Well, how could you…how
could you have stood all this attention and accusation in the press.
And, what our response is -and, it's…it's…it's very genuine - you
know…uh, we lost our child. And, that was the worst thing that could
happen to us. What followed was small by comparison. And, and…for a
long time, was…was of no consequence to us. Uh…you know, it was
hurtful. Uh, but we'd been hurt deeper that anyone could hurt us again.
PATSY RAMSEY: What WAS bad was…I mean, you had to…to…realize
where we were coming from. We - there was a murderer in our home.
Yeah…this murderer is still at large. So when we would come…um, back
to our car, to a parking lot, and all of a sudden this…you know…this
MAN(!) jumped out from between a car with something in his hand…I
don't know whether it's a journalist or a…or a nut-case. Or, the
murderer! I don't know if that's a camera, or a gun. I mean, it's
frightening. You know, when…when you KNOW that there is a…a
madman out there, and then JOURNALISTS, you know, for the sake of
the public's right to know…(exasperated gasp)…PREY on you like this,
it's…it's…it's inhumane.
MODERATOR: One of the things about, um…well, "good journalism"…I
guess we can make a distinction…is that in "good journalism"
sometimes, uh…often times, good reporting on a crime can help solve a
crime. Uh -
PATSY RAMSEY: -That's right!-
JOHN RAMSEY: - You bet! In fact, the best investigative work in this
case has been done by journalists.
PATSY RAMSEY: -Um hmm. Absolutely.
JOHN RAMSEY: We've got some incredibly good information from
journalists, who, on their own, have dug into things that, uh…have
been very, very interesting….
MODERATOR: Another question from our students. Tell us who you are
-
STUDENT QUESTIONER #2: Hi. Sean (redacted), from College Park.
Thanks a lot for coming. Um…my question is: over the course of this
ordeal, the media kinda sized up your decision to hire separate legal
counsel…do you think that their interpretation played a role in -
JOHN RAMSEY: -Sure. It played a role…i-i-i-i-i-in how people perceived
us. It played a role in how the police perceived us. Let me correct one
thing: we didn't make that decision. We were, uh…basically immobile. I
mean, Patsy and I were devastated. Uh…a good friend of ours, who is
an attorney, who'd been a former Prosecuting Attorney, uh…took me
aside and said, "John, would you allow me to do some things I think are
necessary to do here?" And I said, "Yeah." Cause he was a trusted
friend. Uh, he brought in attorneys on our behalf. And we said, "Hey,
why do we need attorneys? B: Why do we need 2 attorneys?" And they
said, "This is how we need to do it. And it's prudent." And I trusted
him.
Uh, clearly it was the right thing to do…um, unfortunately our justice
system is flawed. In some cases, and is not, uh…pure as we would
hope it would be. And, um…his position for us was: if you're dealing
with a…system that is not perfect…you absolutely need to be
represented. And, um…I think it was absolutely the correct decision. It
was an incorrect decision in terms of how the police and the public
perceived us.
The police, automatically: "You get an attorney; you're guilty." That's
how they look at it. And I think the public, to a large degree, does too.
And, um…y-y-you know, I've often thought: "Well, gee…what if we
hadn't…what if we had just said 'No'?" You know, "We don't need
attorneys…why do we need attorneys?" Cause that was certainly the
thought that was going through our mind. Um, what…what difference
would that have made? And, uh…you know, we might have been in jail
today…I don't know. Uh, because the system, the justice system…was
out to get us. Clear and simple.
That, that became evident…downstream…as we begin to understand
that…uh, they really were…focused on the family, because…it's always
the parents.
PATSY RAMSEY: I have a new appreciation for attorneys…I don't tell
those "lawyer jokes" anymore…because they know so much about the
justice system. Um…I remember when it…you know, rumors were flying
all the time that I was going to be arrested…and thrown in jail…and I
said: "LET THEM! Let them throw me in jail! I will be sittin' there, and
that'll just give me more fuel for the furnace…you know, when I'm
throwin' out lawsuits, you know. And my attorney said, "You don't
understand." He said, "Without exception, every one of my clients who
has been put in a jail cell…you know, months later another inmate will
be put in the same jail cell…you know…chit-chatting…whatnot…a few
minutes later, the inmate goes out and says, 'She confessed!'"
And, I was just…I was just STUNNED! This can't be happening. In this
country. And he said, "Believe me, it happens." He said, "If you, you
know, are behind bars, you will not be alone for one second. They'll
have somebody there, sitting with you, at all times…" Because, he said,
"It happens. It happens every time."
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, our attorneys were very, very afraid of the
justice system, 'cause they knew it was flawed. And, um…that was a
wake-up call for us, I think. And…and…and one of the things we wanna
make a difference in, uh…is that whole process.
I mean we've got inexperienced police, in general, and I mean this is
not a categorical statement…uh, who are too eager to make an arrest.
We've got prosecutors who are paid to prosecute. And, we've got
politicians who garner votes based on being "tough on crime." And, um,
it's dangerous. It sounds good to us law-abiding citizens, but it's a
dangerous…uh, uh…edge that we're kinda walking on. And I'm
convinced that there are thousands of innocent people in jails today.
Every day, when you pick up the paper….
But, that's what we were faced with. And, our friend who was
experienced…had been on the prosecuting side, and the defense side,
saw it…and we didn't. And that's how attorneys first got involved. But
did they…did that bias things? Absolutely.
STUDENT QUESTIONER #2: Great. Thank you very much.
MODERATOR: Jill?
STUDENT QUESTIONER #3: My name is Jill (redacted), I'm also a
journalism student at the University of Maryland.
What did the media expose that you felt should have been kept
private? And, what hasn't been told that you think should have been?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, gosh…you know (laughs)…my mother always
said, "Watch your reputation!" You know, "Don't go in that bar, don't do
this…don't do that…" You know, "What - you gotta -Watch your
reputation." I have thanked her about a gazillion times. Because they
absolutely have…you know…SCOURED our backgrounds…and they said,
you know, we'd be perfect political candidates now because, you know,
everything's out in the open. All the skeletons, all the -
JOHN RAMSEY: - lots of skeletons that weren't there -
PATSY RAMSEY: (Loudly) Hee-hee! Yeah! Right! But, just…I mean…they
went back and found my High School English teacher! Uh…old
boyfriends…you know, I'm embarrassed because those people were
bothered…because of me…you know…
JOHN RAMSEY: I think the big issue is, i-i-if we're looking at what,
whatta we need to worry about as a society, is that was reflected on
our case, is there's a…there's a too much of a intermingling of the
justice system and the media. Uh…you know…in some countries;
England, for example…most English-based-law countries, the things
that went on in our case would have put journalists and police in jail. In
England you're not allowed…it's called…oh, it's a Latin term, I forget
it…but you're not allowed to report on evidence and…uh…uh…
PATSY RAMSEY: - in an ongoing case -
JOHN RAMSEY: - the process of an ongoing case, because it biases the
case…one way or the other. It's not true in our country…and, in fact,
it's gotten…I…my believe…is that one of the things we need to look at
as a society is that this is a problem. Where…uh, a television program
can try, as we were tried, on television…it, uh…it…you gotta realize
we've never, ever…yet, heh (laugh)…been named as a suspect. That's
really the first step in…in a…in a…process for the police…they name you
as a suspect. Then you're indicted, it takes a little bit of evidence to
indict, it takes a ton of evidence to convict.
We've never even been named as a suspect…in the media we've been
tried, convicted…charged, tried, convicted, and…uh…it's over. And, and
that's a problem for our system, because the justice system can't work
properly with that going on around it. A detective told me that…an old,
retired, very experienced detective…he said the problem with this case
was so much media attention, th-th-that the detectives weren't
allowed to do their job. And they do their job kinda of in the
background. They…uh-h-h…pick here…they look here…you know, it's
a…it's a complex thing to solve this kind of crime. Very complex. Takes
a lot of gray matter. It takes a lot of time.
Well, when the media gets involved in demanding an answer for the 6
o'clock news, uh…the Chief gets involved. And he micro-manages. Well,
the Chief hasn't been in a crime investigation, maybe ever, as it was in
the case in Boulder…uh…certainly for a long time, because he's been an
administrator…the Chief of Detectives gets involved. And, the poor
detective, uh…can't do his job.
So, that…in the very beginning, with that kind of attention and
pressure…uh, the justice system, the investigative process, can't
operate. Doesn't work. And, that's a problem.
And, uh…it's a…I'm not sure how you fix it. But…you know, in terms…so,
there's issues of just the privacy of the investigation that needs to be
somehow protected, so that the process can work. And, that may take
years.
And, that's a flaw, and that's something that…that…to specifically
address your question…uh, should not have been exposed…uh…the
police used the media…they played the media like a fiddle in this
case…they leaked innuendos….
Their strategy basically was to put immense pressure on us so that
we'd break. And…in fact, they wanted to throw one of us in…I guess
both of us…in jail. And they figured, well…one of us would crack…and
turn on the other…they weren't sure which one, but the two of us were
in the house…it had to be one or the other.
And, my fundamental criticism of the media, as I really analyze this
from 30,000 feet, is that they…uh, they took these leaks, and
innuendos, and basically gossip as fact, and ran with it. And they ran
with it world-wide. Rather than being skeptical of the police.
The police as a gov-, …you know, the justice system is a government
organization. And hence, should be looked at with some degree of
skepticism, and, uh…and, uh…suspicion.
I mean that's…that's…to me...and I don't know if this is what you teach
in school, but…to me the…and I've thought a lot about this, but the
main responsibility of a free press in a democracy is to keep the
government honest. And, uh…we seem to not realize that the justice
system is the government. I mean, we're seeing cases not with, you
know…Wen Ho Lee, and, you know, there's…there's…I'm sensitive to it
because I look for it in the papers, and it's always there. Where,
uh…that role has been grossly overstepped. And, uh…but, um…the-the
willingness to…uh…convict…you know…not only before trial, but before
anyone's ever been charged, is a huge…error…that was illustrated in
our case.
And that's a…that's a violation…not of our privacy…well, it is, I guess in
a lot of respects. Um…because we were the victims. But, it destroys
the system that we, that we put in place to deal with these kinds of
things.
STUDENT QUESTIONER #3: For the second part of that question: was
there anything that you feel should have been exposed, but
wasn't…should have been told, by the media, that wasn't?
JOHN RAMSEY: (To Patsy) Any thoughts?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well…um, there again I think…um, a lot of press has
been guilty of just taking…you know, by spoonfuls, information that the
police department wanted them to have. So…and, very little
investigative reporting was done. I mean, just this summer, just in the
past few weeks, we learned that there was another young girl
assaulted, in her bed…by a perpetrator…who had been in the house for
at least four hours…this happened in…
JOHN RAMSEY: September.
PATSY RAMSEY: September of 1997. And, the Special Prosecutor for
the Grand Jury…he did not know about this…I mean, it was kept…you
know…quiet! -
JOHN RAMSEY: - that was an example of good journalism, in my
opinion! I mean…and these…the guys that dug this out, and ultimately
reported on it, had been some of our harshest -
PATSY RAMSEY: - Journalists!
JOHN RAMSEY: - critics, but they were journalists…and they, basically,
uh…called the police…uh, on this, and said, "Wait a minute. This…why
haven't you looked at this?"
END OF PART ONE
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PART 2 - Thursday, October 12, 2000
Newseum interview "Inside Media:
Coverage and Controversies with the Ramseys
https://thewebsafe.tripod.com/10122000ramseynewseum2.htm
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