Peter Boyles Show - Monday, December 28, 1998
"Boyles - Monday"
Posted by Byron on 06:02:29 12/28/98
Include Original Message on Reply
Yes, I'm up and tired and ready to report the show. Panico, I hope you're able to join in.
1. "Here goes:"
Posted by Byron on 06:19:11 12/28/98
(playing the tape of JR saying "We will find you..."
PB - That's one of the premier voices of the year. We're hear at the Holiday Inn, the people from 20/20 are here, we're scheduled to be on the Today show today. The GJ takes the month off, but since we did mark the second anniversary, I thought it was important to talk about this case. Later in the morning Chuck Green will be here, and then Jeff Rutledge will be here from Penthouse magazine, and don't minimize that, it's going to be a great article, then Patty Calhoun from Westword, Frank Coffman. Here's my question for the open lines in the first hour. First, what have you learned from this case about American justice...two, who do you think killed JBR and why, and third, what will the outcome of this American tragedy will be. Charlie Brennan did a very good year-end piece on the case.
First person up to the open mike - (feedback)
PB - Put the headsets on.
Person - I believe that justice delayed is justice denied.
PB - Do you live up here?
P- Unfortunately I do.
PB - Did you read the article about AH?
P - I'm hoping it will go to trial, and that its a class issue. If this was a poor person they would be behind bars by now.
PB - I thin everyone who's examined this case knows that the first 72 hours were blown.
P - There's been a heck of a fallout up here.
PB - I continue to say these people are the La Brea tarpit...whoever goes near them gets sucked in and pulled down, and I feel even their attorneys are in that situation.
p - I think they have been treated with kid gloves. We have the Suzannah Chase case which hasn't been solved.
PB - It's amazing how the situation changed, as to the safety of Boulder...if there's a single person left who believes in the innocence of the R's, and I don't even think their attorneys do anymore.
PB - Craig Lewis, Carol McKinley, Craig Hodges, Craig Silverman, etc. will all be here.
Posted by Byron on 06:35:08 12/28/98
(tape of the housekeeper saying how Nedra was at her side at the hospital (cancer), but JR wasn't)
PB - Charles, good morning.
CG - 3:15 is not kind to me.
PB - The three questions I've posed (repeat)
CG - The last four years, which include the OJ case. There are two systems of justice in the country. You get the quality of defense you can afford. It's undeniable. The R case has demonstrated it even more than the OJ case. The other blade on that sword is what it does to the public confidence.
PB - Who do you believe killed her?
CG - The conclusion is that its almost impossible to believe that it was someone from the outside. Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't specify which one, although it comes down heavier on PR. You can't file charges against two people and have the jury sort it out. It isn't a multiple choice test. Primarily due to the first 48 hours, I don't think this case will be solved without a confession. They were treated differently than most parents would be. They were interviewed somewhat casually, but PR wasn't asked questions, once it was decided it was a murder, until months later.
PB - Marking over two years...the folks from 20/20 are here.
CG - The crime scene contamination, the lack of aggressiveness from the DA. The DA didn't become aggressive in this case for about a year. A year ago last summer, and we've begun the third year, the summer of 1997 there were witnesses who should have been compelled to testify. Memories fade, evidence disappears.
PB - If this had been a minority couple, or a working class couple, what do you think the outcome would have been. The Denver Post really took down Alex Hunter, and I want to hear what Chuck thinks about that.
Posted by Byron on 06:51:57 12/28/98
(playing excerpt from Steve Thomas interview)
Gene from Cheyenne - If you're middle class, poor, you're below the wall...
CG - It's only recently we've started having children's advocates.
PB - What have you learned about american justice?
Gene - There's no justice at all. Nothing has been done.
PB - Coming up will be Jeff Rutlege and then John Gibson from MSNBC. The piece in the DP was very hard-hitting.
CG - I think it was justified, based upon the performance history of AH.
PB - He was once given a jacket which called him the Monty Hall of DA's.
CG - The Boulder DA's office is definitely the most lenient in Colo. There have even been instances of plea-bargaining before arrest, which is unheard of.
Caller - There were two things on a show on A & E.
The MSNBC stuff...there was so much that the media put out was wrong.
PB - That was the Michael Tracey crockumentary. Did MT tell you that that would never air until the GJ was concluded?
CG - That was the condition put on it...
PB - On the proverbial record, didn't MT tell you it wouldn't see the light of day.
Caller - Boulder, they've had another murder. I don't want to tie that into it...
CG - That case has gone unsolved, but when you talk about multiple murderers, there would be similarities.
PB - If there's a child killer out there, where are the other victims?
CG - Serial killers prey upon a certain type of victim. There's a pattern there...
Caller - The two of them...they were pretty cold...I want to give them the benefit of the doubt...
PB - All you have to do is think of Susan Smith...
Posted by Byron on 06:59:56 12/28/98
(playing tape of PR from crock about everything being dug into, and did they suspect each other)
PB - The role of the media has yet to be told as well...
CG - Yes, and it's a huge role. JBR was the headline on the Globe and the Enquirer 51 out of 52 weeks, outdoing the Kennedys, etc. I've receieved e-mail from every country in the world, including Uganda. The other side of it is that the media has been involved in the case. You've pointed out Channel 9...
PB - ...and Michael Tracey. When we return, Jeff Rutlege from Penthouse.
Posted by Byron on 07:23:27 12/28/98
PB - We are marking over two years...48 Hours is here. Joining us now...we have become phone friends...
JR - Happy holidays Peter.
PB - Talk about your background.
JR - I wrote for the old Pittsburg press, Rolling Stone, the old Village Voice, and I've covered the OJ case. It will appear in the March issue. The thrust of it is trying to separate the facts from the fiction. I was drawn by the contrasts between the writings of CG, Anne Louise Bardach.
PB - The three questions...the word belief is important here rather than knowledge.
JR - I certainly believe that the parents did it. If they're both involved in the cover-up, they're both guilty, right?
PB - I know that you also have studied about the role of the media.
JR - I had an interesting encounter. They took an advocacy role for the R's...it was Dan Glick. Pam Paugh has pointed at a particular person, Fleet White, who is absolutely innocent. This reporter actually tried to get me to investigate FW.
PB - Dan Glick actually urged you to pursue FW as a suspect?
JR - DG said, "You have to admit he's been acting pretty strange since the murders..." The cops were flabbergasted that someone would say that.
PB - Even thought the police had publicly cleared him, he still wanted you to go after him?
JR - ABC had made an agreement regarding the documentary, and DG took the film to England, and that every time they would see something that would come up against the police, he would cheer loudly, like a cheeerleader. When I pressed him on the cheering part, he said he "couldn't recall that happening".
PB - Sort of like what the meaning of "is" is.
CG - If you take an advocacy role, you should admit that up front, but if someone like Dan Glick...
PB - ...or Sherrie Keene Osborne...How can you be a reporter and at the same time receive money from ...DG said he couldn't talk to me because he had an exclusive with Larry King. How can these people write alleged articles for Newsweeek...?
JR - I find it highly ironic that they take a swipe at the media, and then pretend to be unbiased...
CG - You said that you came into this project propelled by your curiousity...with no agenda...what were your overall impressions...
(pause for traffic)
Posted by Byron on 07:35:26 12/28/98
(Is anybody out there?)
PB - What's the working title of the piece?
JR - "The Truth about JonBenet Ramsey"
PB - We were making the point about MT, and how they said it would never appear until the GJ had completed its work. Of course, they tried to get it out as soon as they could.
JR - When I talked to Mr. Glick, he threatened me about ever using the quotes. He said "I'll get you". He eventually calmed down.
CG - What were you most surprised about?
JR - That there are no mysteries here. I saw where everything was going. I saw a lot of the outtakes of the documnetary. There is absolutely no mystery.
PB - The only mystery there is to me is which of the parents did what.
CG - You have to look at the evidence, and how strongly can you draw conclusions from it. You can't say no parent could do this, because we know they can. We know that parents can deceive the public.
PB - One of the more interesting things, was the part about Jeff Ramsey...
JR - ...he wasn't even there.
PB - Unless you know this story, they can walk you down the path...
Posted by Byron on 07:53:41 12/28/98
CG - You can't tell by someone's demeanor... I want to relate an anecdote from Greg McCrary. You can study these people's backgrounds, you can talk to the Ted Bundys, the Jeffrey Dahmers, and in forty-five minutes they'll have you convinced they didn't do it.
PB - What things would you like to say about the murder?
JR - You try to construct a perfect alibi, and in the end it's the alibi that gets you.
PB - Joining us now, is John Gibson from MSNBC. You made your bones in the OJ trial, and CG said this is almost a continuation.
JG - How does the alibi get them? They were there. With OJ, either he did or he didn't. With the R's, it's which one did it? Both of them are perfectly capable of doing it. As long as they hold tight and together, you need one or the other.
CG - People are hoping the GJ is going to straighten it out, and I don't have too much confidence in that.
PB - Why do you think this has captured the imagination of the public?
JG - I think it's the pictures. You see her dancing, flirting, etc., and you wonder how did she get to be that little girl?
PB - There seemed to be an unlimited supply of performance videos.
CG - ...and of course you have to realize that all that video was shot on a couple of Sunday afternoons (laughter from audience) This continues to be a great mystery.
JG - The reason it stays so fascinating...the mystery...it was the pictures who brought Nicole to life.
PB - How do you and your staff decide what you do? I know tonight you'll be focusing on the Ramsey case.
JG - What do you think people want to talk about...ultimately the shot caller would be the producer, Bill Griffith. For ten months, it's been Monica.
PB - Pam Paugh is going to make an appearance on Larry King tonight along with some media rollovers. Have you ever asked PP on your show?
CG - If you ever get PP on your show, PP has said she's had some conversations with JBR, and I want to know why she hasn't asked her who killed her.
PB - Larry King will have the media butt-boys on.
JG - If you were Aunt Pam, would you go on the Peter Boyles show?
Posted by Byron on 08:00:35 12/28/98
(Since I'm on vacation, I can cover the entire show today. I could have driven up to Boulder and seen it live, but I wasn't sure if it would get "reported" then. Panico, I'm thinking of you, and praying for a complete recovery. The Penthouse story seems like it will be VERY interesting, because PB said something to the effect of "I don't want you to give it all away")
Person at event - I think of the cadet murder. Nobody knew who exactly pulled the trigger, but they were both charged and convicted.
CG - There are similarities, but there was more evidence in that case. (break)
Posted by Byron on 08:16:50 12/28/98
PB - Joining us now is Craig Silverman.
CS - It is certainly windy this morning.
PB - The questions I posed (repeat). You are a man who's involved in this.
CS - Some things have just been reinforced. In the last part of my DA career, I saw more politicization of the process. Something about the new media, the internet...you just have to go there to find out what's happening. You can even go back a year if you want. We know whoever wrote the ransom note was trying to disguise it. If the mother was willing to write the note, isn't it likely she would be involved in the murder.
PB - What will the outcome be?
CS - I'm afraid what's in store, is that the DA hopes the GJ will not return an indictment, but will instead issue a report which puts the blame on the police. Someday there may be the "Hunter Report", and I'm not sure he'll get away that easy.
PB - They'll (R's) grab you and suck you under.
CS - Just get back to the politics of it. Like the Clinton thing, which one is more serious? It's typical that the facts and the law have nothing to do with it. With AH remaining in charge, there will not be a trial.
PB - AH has announced he won't run again...
CS - ...and that's when the book deal begins...
(audience laughter) What are FW and Pricilla going to say?
14. "Letter from Laurion..."
Posted by MrsBrady on 08:11:16 12/28/98
...Thanks Byron! We are here, but were all probably just hushed and in awe. The last time I talked to PB he said that Real Audio was coming very soon - Hang in there!
Which reminds me...Lance Matthews received an email from Suzanne Laurion (Hunter's Spokeswoman) to read on the air during that Albany, NY radio show last week. In it she refers to Panico's and Byron's reports BY NAME, she reads them avidly and found them to be accurate and interesting. I'll try to convince Lance to post the entire email here.
Posted by Byron on 08:32:11 12/28/98
(tape from the housekeeper discussing JBR and her comments about being fat)
(Interesting about the E-mail, Mrs. B)
(Wow, they're playing Jethro Tull "Teacher" as background music, my favorite group)
Person in audience - Whatever happened to Lou Smit? He came in with great credentials, and he declared the R's as innocent, and now he's sort of disappeared.
CS - Maybe AH thought someone like a Steve Thomas would do what he did...almost immediately after ST resigns, something unprecedented, LS writes a letter following the ST letter...
PB - The verbiage gets changed in the letter. We get two copies of his letter. Here's Frank Coffman...
FC - I think that the people who were more sympathetic to the intruder theory...Smit very much believed in it. (sorry, I lost most of that quote)
CS - Lou comes out with this letter, unprofessional. AH has yet to come out and condemn the release of this letter. Roy Romer wouldn't get a special prosecutor involved, but gov-elect Billl Owens is going to wait and see..
PB - I know Bill Owens is listening this morning.
FC - It was downtown. I tried to take a pic of JR, he came right at me, like a berserk maniac, but MB said it isn't worth it, and he stopped...like a switch was turned off. He seemed more angry about the picture being taken than he is about the murder.
(Too many people talking too fast for me to stay caught up...I need a coffee break)
Posted by Byron on 08:48:36 12/28/98
(playing the tape of We will find you...)
PB - Sitting with us is Craig Silverman, and a good investigative reporter, Frank Coffman. Joining us now is Dr. Hodges. Give us a mini-lecture. What is the motive of the ransom note?
Hodges - Nobody is addressing the psychology of the ransom note. In Mother Gone Bad...I looked at the forest instead of the trees. There's a certain sequence that there's an incredible need to confess. In the first paragraph, somebody's got possession of someone. I've referred to the numerous cancer references.
PB - When the R's are told that they have their daughter...the two people who have control over their daughter...follow our instructions...if you som much as breathe this to anyone...what's the first thing they do? They call 911, after a call first to Michael Bynum. It doesn't make sense. I've spoken to more feds, and they have ways of coming into the home other than directly as cops in a black and white.
Hodges - The evidence shows this is a note of fiction, but if we start out there comes a certain rythym...when the killer breaks it...notice the sequence after that...notice the sequence...two gentleman talking about their daughter being beheaded. Since we last talked, I've gone over the documentary, and there are more slips...(goes over the JR version of what happened from the croc) ...and he says "going downscares"...that was very revealing...PR winces on "strangled" and on the writing of the three page ransom note...that had to be so painful to them...R talks about the murder being a crushing blow...and about the lynch mob...these comments are very revealing.
PB - We're talking about the "and hences"...which has appeared so much I now say it on the air.
Posted by Byron on 09:00:39 12/28/98
(Housekeeper again talking about the R marriage)
PB - Most people who follow the case believe she died on Christmas night, and there's a great breakfast being served. Dr. Hodges got called out on an emergency. Julie Hayden is with us. (repeats questions, talk about media coverage) Paula... (laughs from audience)
JH - They think they know who did it. They think there will be an indictment and a trial.
FC - If there's an indictment, I don't think it will be JR.
PB - There are people who believe that PR owned this entire crime.
FC - The question is "What did JR know, and when did he know it".
CS - When JR mentioned "not for a nanosecond..."
JH - Why has he been participating in the coverup? That 911 call shows something was up.
22. "last hour"
Posted by Byron on 09:21:51 12/28/98
(playing the housekeeper talking about the "sexy witch" costume)
PB - This is the beginning of the third year. Joining us are CS, on the line with us is JH, and joining us is Carol McKinley...give her a hand. The two of you, JH and CM, what are the lessons you've learned? Julie used to read the news for me on KNUS. Carol used to be the board operator for me. I've spawned these two.
CM - I've learned to stick with the basics, journalism 101. I don't think that's been done enough...there's no mystery to it, like you said...I've learned how ugly it can get. People have lost their jobs, people's entire lives have been destroyed.
PB - There's someone here who's here just to watch the show whose life has been ruined by this, and his wife is here too. (FW...ST?)
JH - There's a competitive pressure. You just look at how the crime has affected people...and looking at how people handle the media.
JH - The R's have always said it's the police who are leaking, and I know they're not saying much. It's easy to get things out of the R camp. The R's have leaked, the DA has leaked, and the BPD has leaked.
PB - One of the things...is it fair to say that this got taken away from the local media to the nationals?
JH - You would see things show up, and you had to wonder why they were talking to them.
PB - Take the case of Steve Thomas, he went national...
CM - I think I know why he did that...the producer he used is the same one who worked with Mark Fuhrman...and he had great respect for that situation.
PB - Michael Bynum, goes with Dianne Sawyer, and he put on an act...and conversly, they choose what they do...CG screwed it up for her, was Paula Woodward and a house tour.
JH - They kind of swoop in here, they do their story, and they really don't know what's going on.
PB - It's like a tour in Viet Nam. They keep sending in new people.
CM - Well, you can talk to Craig Lewis about that.
JH - I think that the one thing, in spite of everything surrounding this, this is about a little girl who was murdered in such a brutal way. I think there will be an indictment, and there will be a trial. The sad thing is there may never be a conviction.
CM - I believe there will be an indictment also. I want to show you something Peter.
Posted by Byron on 09:40:05 12/28/98
PB - Thanks to the Holiday Inn. We'll end the hour, as we go to Las Vegas to speak with Craig Lewis. You have something in front of you I've never seen before...
CM - I got this from Quantico. What they found was that "stranger-danger" is really a myth. They also found that the younger a child, the more likely is that it's someone they know. GM asked them, Would you look at these stats. Wayne Lord (of FBI) was asked by Greg McCrary to come up with stats about abducted kids in his computer...there were 550 cases, and there were 16 similar to the Ramsey case, and in every single one of them, it was a parent who did it. These are national statistics, this isn't a smoking gun.
PB - I was told that the people at Quantico constructed a model of the child's head...
CM - What they decided was that the most consistent thing that could cause this kind of thing was a mag flashlight. There were no fingerprints on the batteries. Who would do that?
PB - The BPD would say there is no mystery here. What do you say to that. FC, is there a mystery.
FC - Of course there is. Who would need to do it? I do think there's a mystery as to WHY this happened.
CS - Which one did the specific act...and the who, when, where, why.
CM - I have to hold out that the R's might not have done it. It doesn't make sense to me...and I would have to say they're under suspicion.
CS - The one thing that isn't a mystery is that she was brutally killed, and yet the GJ takes the month off. They're meeting very sporadically.
PB - My theory is that they didn't want the frenzy at the end of the year...they didn't want the GJ convened when the media would be swarming.
CS - ...but that's politics, and we're talking justice here.
Posted by Byron on 09:56:40 12/28/98
(housekeeper - talking about collage pictures of Beth JR kept in the bathroom)
PB - Let's go the CL. I asked those who have done the hard work, and clearly you're one of them. CL has done so many stories, and you're one of the few I know who have met JR and PR.
CL - I don't think JBR's killer was in Madrid or Amsterdam...they weren't there looking for the real killer. If PR did it, why would JR protect her? That's the biggest mystery to me. If she did it, why does he allow PR to raise his son? There isn't a nanny, or anyone else, except her mother. That's an incredible scenario. I think JR found out a couple of hours before the body was found.
PB - He was in denial that the perp was his wife.
CL - Either she confessed to him, but he went into the basement a couple of hours before the body was found. This is my theory. Supposedly there was a conversation between JR and FW that accidents can happen, etc. I think FW wanted to be a friend initially.
PB - How many friends are still standing?
CL - No one wants to believe it...I go fishing with them...but when time passes, and linguistics or phrases come into it, and they may go into their x-mas card file, and those aching doubts come out and youu say, that sounds like them. Motive is always murky in murders, but when you talk about taking someone's life.
PB - Nobody believes that they intended to do this...
CL - Nobody believes it, but who's to say it didn't happen?
CS - It's true that you don't have to have a motive, but it certainly helps.
FC - In the OJ case, it's not hard to imagine because he had been violent before. I leave a little room for doubt, because there's never been any evidence of violence in the family. You look at a person's life, and I've never heard a person who ever heard her raise her voice...
27. "last segment"
Posted by Byron on 10:01:47 12/28/98
PB - Internight will have their hour tonight on the JBR case.
CL - As we all know, it's a terrible tragedy. It's a sad, sad, thing. I don't think there will ever be a trial in this case. I don't see it happening.
CS - If they go based on probably cause. Henry Lee had this disturbing quote, (reads it)..and we're missing all of those.
FC - They're going to pose as innocent victims...
28. "Final comments"
Posted by Byron on 10:06:21 12/28/98
Panico, I really learned to appreciate what you've done. I've rarely tried to transcribe the entire four hours, and it's rough.